EP7: Embracing the Tech Revolution with ScaleUp's CEO Adi Behlulovic

Imagine transforming from a coder behind the screen to a tech visionary leading a startup revolution. That's the story of our guest Adi, the CEO of ScaleUp. He takes us through his enriching journey from software development to innovative entrepreneurship, revealing the pivotal moments that reshaped his career and the startup landscape. We zoom in on Adi's groundbreaking approach to tech services, where he merges business acumen with legal and monetization expertise, crafting a partnership that's more than just outsourcing—it's a blueprint for startup success.

Venture into the realm of strategic product creation as we dissect the concept of a long-lasting MVP, a beacon in today's fast-paced tech world. With Adi's insights, we'll show you why betting on gradual, feedback-driven development trumps the allure of big-budget splurges. From niche music industry game-changers to the seismic shifts in the post-pandemic startup ecosystem, we explore how innovation thrives in the new remote work era. This episode is your guide to understanding the changing tides of startup scaling and the art of crafting products with enduring impact.

As we navigate the future of startups in an AI-augmented era, we find balance in the human element amidst the hybrid work revolution. We ponder the role of AI in software development, tackling the tough questions about its influence on creativity and job security. Whether you're an aspiring software developer eager to stay ahead of the curve, or a founder deciding between bootstrapping and wooing investors, this conversation is packed with rich insights. Adi leaves us with a parting shot of wisdom: mastering core programming languages is the key to longevity in the tech world, so arm yourself with knowledge and dive into the future prepared.


Adi Behlulovic
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adibehlulovic/

Chapters

• 0:05 Tech Innovation Journey With Adi
• 9:40 Long-Term Approach to MVP Development
• 14:32 Navigating Workplace and AI Innovations
• 24:03 The Future of AI in Startups

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to Tech Travels hosted by the seasoned tech enthusiast and industry expert, steve Woodard. With over 25 years of experience and a track record of collaborating with the brightest minds in technology, steve is your seasoned guide through the ever-evolving world of innovation. Join us as we embark on an insightful journey, exploring the past, present and future of tech under Steve's expert guidance.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Welcome back, fellow travelers, to another exciting episode of Tech Travels. In today's episode, we're venturing into the world of tech innovation with a true visionary who has turned over 50 star-in-app dreams into market realities. His ventures have a market valuation of over 100 million euros and he's even navigated the pivotal Series A funding landscape. He's a maestro of AI and blockchain and he's leveraging cutting edge to stay ahead. Join us as we explore how this amazing guest has not just navigated it, but he's also crafting the tech terrain. Welcome to the show, adi Thanks.

Speaker 3: 1:11

Steve, thanks for the great intro.

Speaker 2: 1:13

Absolutely so, to help our listeners know a little bit about your background, can you tell us about your journey and how you found yourself being CEO of ScaleUp?

Speaker 3: 1:22

Yeah, sure, I would be happy to share. My journey started maybe early 2000s when I basically went on to university and studied information systems and management. Soon after graduation I started working as an intern in software development world. A couple of my first projects in the first few years as a software developer were a bit more on the enterprise side and it was maybe for maybe two or three or four years that I continued working with enterprises and probably that was the reason why I kind of made a shift in the career as well. I mean total shift. I shifted from working as a software developer to a more management role as a project manager.

Speaker 3: 2:16

Initially it was a bit thrilling kind of moving to project management role in a startup ecosystem and I started basically by kind of organizing teams and making sure that the team organization is up to the challenge of startups, of building startup products, because definitely it's something that needs special attention when it comes to organizing these teams for startups. And after a few years of working as a project manager I started working as a product manager where basically I had a bit more responsibility in terms of actually making decisions on the product, in terms of the features that you're going to build, in terms of the metrics that you're going to track and, in general, kind of keeping everything aligned between the stakeholders and the product itself. And at that point, basically those achievements that you mentioned are kind of where they came. Basically, I led first one startup through the Series A where they basically managed to raise about two to three million euros. Soon after that I led another startup it was a gaming startup that basically had an evaluation of 100 million euros at one point. All of those roles. After that I worked as a proxy role as well as a product manager for multiple startups from USA and EU countries as well. But all of those roles were through a proxy role, through different tech companies, tech service companies and kind of.

Speaker 3: 4:02

It was limiting, in a way, that the level of responsibility or the level of decision making that I could do on the product itself. And I identified that there is a gap in how all of these tech service companies work with startups and I decided to step up the game and find scale up. And at that point, basically I have found scale up and since 2019, we are leveraging that and filling that gap in a way that tech service companies are working with startups like many of them majority of them that I work for are kind of trying to replicate the outsourcing model and apply that to startups, and it simply doesn't work. I mean, if you want to scale startup, if you want to make startup success from that technical aspect, you need to be a bit more hands on with the startup and it's not simply simple as that.

Speaker 3: 4:59

Like outsourcing, it's more of being that extended arm and then kind of making decisions, making the advice is, making making sure that every aspect of product is built correctly, etc. So it needs a bit more reliable. It needs a bit more dedication, I would say, from the tech team, and that is what we do basically from 2019 onwards. We're working with startups from Europe and USA, building startups from the tech side of the things, assisting with monetization strategy, assisting with business strategy, assisting with legal stuff, etc. Like trying to be one stop shop for startups from all around the globe. So pretty much that's where we are at the moment.

Speaker 2: 5:42

No, yeah, adi, that's amazing. Your journey from project to product management and identifying a critical gap in those tech services for startups is really fascinating. I wonder what was the precise moment or instance that highlighted this gap for you. Was it a particular trend in outsourcing that you found that didn't align with startup needs, or did you notice a broader need within companies that simply just couldn't fulfill internally? I'm really interested in what sparked the creation of scale-up and what was your approach to providing a real comprehensive approach for tech partnerships for startups.

Speaker 3: 6:23

Yeah, good question. I mentioned that outsourcing model. So all of the majority of big tech companies that you know that are from kind of known tech service companies. When I say tech companies, I mean tech service companies. The majority of them are the biggest of them are awesome in that organization segment, in providing developers for the startups, for the enterprises. So when enterprise comes and say, okay, I need 30 developers of this exact technology or of this exact tech stack, etc. So they're perfect in aligning and offering that kind of support. If someone comes to me in scale-up and says, okay, I need 40 developers of specific technology, I would say like no chance that we can provide that. So these companies are awesome in that segment. But they're more kind of specialists rather than generalists and I would say that in order that you can work successfully with startups, you need to be a bit more on that generalist side where you can assist startups in multiple ways. So it's not only like giving them developers and saying, okay, this is hourly rate for developers and this is it, so they are your developers.

Speaker 3: 7:38

Now it's not simple, as that. Startups needs a bit more attention. They need help in organizing, they need help in building the product roadmap, they need help in user research and customer research, etc. So this is the gap, basically, that I identified by working with my majority of these companies. Like big companies I work for and they're kind of perfect in this model that I said, like having being able to provide a huge number of resources they call it resources to multiple of these enterprises and their proficient. They're really like that. That setup is awesome. But when it comes to startup, it's whole different game and whole different story. And I always say to startups like you don't need to work with scale up, but when you choose startup, like when you choose tech partner, you need to choose company not by the number of employees but by the expertise that they have, because majority of big, big players there are not going to provide the services that these smaller players can. So that is a pretty interesting point.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Yeah, absolutely, adi. I mean you've eliminated the unique need for startups to be compared you know that need to be compared to large enterprises, especially when it comes to tech partnership Start. Sometimes startups often operate within a limited number of resources and really they need partners who offer not just manpower but really can help target that expertise. So can you walk us through how you step into a startup's journey to help them refine their ideas and really develop a market ready type of MVP or minimum viable product? What kind of, specifically, what type of strategic input and direction do you provide to ensure that they're not just creating a product but the right product for the right target market?

Speaker 3: 9:32

Good question. Like that is more, like it's more that performing that due diligence at start. It's about like if someone comes to me and said, okay, I have 100k for MVP, I would never build the MVP for 100k because that's that's stupid move for from from the tech company to do. And whenever someone asks me, like are you stupid? I mean why don't you take all of the money that they are offering?

Speaker 3: 10:01

It's, it's, we are in it for a long term. You know so, so, and I think that every tech company should be in the game for long term. When I say long term, it says, okay, you have a 100k for a budget, that's awesome, but let's put it on drawing board and let's see what kind of functionalities are the core for your product and let's build, build it with the smallest amount of budget possible, like it's it's 20, 30 or 40 or 50k, um, and let's get it out there. You know so. So let's build that MVP, that that has that unique value proposition that you need, that you, you, you Invision and then show that to customers on board, new customers, take the feedback and then use the remaining budget on, on, upgrading the product to, to to be accustomed to the needs of the customers of your product right.

Speaker 2: 10:47

I mean that's a very compelling approach to MVP development, focusing on core value with an agile response to to feedback. Really interesting. But reflecting on this, could you could you highlight or, you know, just highlight a standout project where your methodology really made a significant impact? I'm interested Really in a case where, once you've launched, the market response was overwhelmingly positive or even game changer for some users. Any examples that you can share, I mean that would be really fascinating. I mean even just just broad strokes of what it was and its success.

Speaker 3: 11:25

Yeah, it's, it's everyone is talking about. Well, that wall factory, you know so. So it's it's it's really hard to to put it out there and and that everyone says it's it's a wow factor. You know, like, if you, if you take a look at the history, it's only fraction, fraction of of products made that that everyone says it's it's wow, you know so. So this is like these big tools, like big apps, like instagram, tick tock, etc. But Majority reality is majority of the tools and majority of the apps that are being billed are basically resolving some, some specific needs in the niche industries. And if I tell you now, basically, like, majority of your audience are going to say, okay, that that's nothing special, you know. But but Some of niche audience are going to say from that industry are going to say, okay, this is something that, that, that, that that gets that wow factor. You know so.

Speaker 3: 12:17

For example, I know we did a lot of products from music industry. Coincidentally, you know, like, when you, when you build a couple of products for founders from music industry, they get, they refer us to their colleagues that are from the same industry and it goes like that. So majority of these products from music industry are kind of trying to connect users, to connect musicians all around the globe. Um, it's, it's I think it is the effect of corona and everything that happened, like trying to work remotely, etc. So so they figure that even they don't need to to be in-house, uh, in order to record a song or something like that.

Speaker 3: 12:52

So majority of these tools are kind of leaning towards connecting people online so that Multiple artists from multiple countries can work online to to record a song, for example, or something like that. So so these are kind of similar tools like this that really are potential big revolution in the future for, for for music industry. There are others like legal, legal Uh products that we have built and that that are kind of trying to to revolutionize the legal world in a way that that All of these effect industries that are kind of more offline, um, are trying to see that benefit Online. They they didn't have it need before with simple like building the web presence, but now, with with all of this artificial intelligence and everything, uh, they truly do do see the the benefit of that and they're trying to build out tools more and more that are basically leaning towards that artificial intelligence and start Starting to exploit that in a way to to enhance their, their business.

Speaker 2: 13:54

Yeah, that's interesting because I the the shift in the startup ecosystem post pandemic Is an indeed a profound one. So, reflecting on this change, how have you really kind of observed startups adapting to these type of new work models? Are they still gravitating toward physical offices, uh, for that synergistic type of energy, um or is it more of a tangible pivot where they're starting to embrace remote, remote setups for long-term flexibility? I mean, just In your view, has this impacted their pace of innovation and their ability to scale? I would think that you know you would think of, especially around AI that's playing more and more and more of a significant role in their type of operations.

Speaker 3: 14:41

Yeah, that that's kind of awesome point, because there's this big battle, if you see, like that, that there are people that are promoting like remote and and they are like Always saying like I would only work for remote companies, and then on the other side there is a, there are companies that I think like in office rules, you know so, so we need to stay in office in order to improve the quality of the work and everything. Uh, personally, I saw that kind of the trend was, as you said, like in in corona. It was the remote, obviously because of the situation, global situation, etc. Um, and part of why the people were enthusiastic about that is that that is something new and I and basically they were forced to do that. Nowadays I see the trend going back into in office and basically like people are really enjoying that socializing on work and kind of being One meter to meter from another person and kind of working together on some specific tasks.

Speaker 3: 15:47

I feel that everything in work should be a balance, you know. So I don't like extremes in either direction. So I'm not big fan of remote first or remote only companies, and not big fan of companies that are saying, okay, in office is the way to work. So I think the future definitely lies in hybrid, hybrid mode. So basically, either allowing people that to love to work couple of days from home, or giving them an option to work from home if they would like. So I think that hybrid is the way that that is going to be in the future. Definitely there is a shift of people that are coming back to the office and kind of praising about that and loving that fact. I think they're going back to the office yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 16:32

I mean navigating the shift in the workplace, I mean, specifically, preferences post pandemic is fascinating. I mean so with this return to office, you know this office basis and the social aspects they bring. I mean it sounds like the hybrid model is what you're forcing as the future norm. So switching gears back to a I. As we look and we stand in 2024, there is a surge of a I tools at our disposal and I'm really curious about the tangible impact it has on startups. So, with your finger on the pulse of product development, are you observing that these advancements are truly accelerating innovation and they're giving startups that cutting edge? Or is there a sense of overwhelm, with startups grappling with these type of tools and how they really meaningfully integrate them into their product vision and their overall operations?

Speaker 3: 17:27

Yes, it's still that that kind of early period of adoption. You know, like in personally, in my industry for start, like in the software development industry, that that shift is there, but but it's still early and there were there was a fear, you know from for in the in general, in software development community, that I is going to take the jobs and that the I is going to replace the software development, etc. So it will never happen in my opinion. But people that are kind of not using these tools, that are spawning everywhere, are going to be deprecated, you know so. So they would need to be replaced with developers that are using these tools, because what will happen, in my opinion, is also development, is that Productivity is going to increase a lot. So. So, for example, something that's one one developer was doing game five years ago in five years ago, one developer is going to do the same stuff in in in the half day, in half time, or something like that.

Speaker 3: 18:31

So that that that is that shift that is going to be there like enhance productivity and that is the core thing I think In terms of startups. They are using the tools. There is kind of like two, two sides of the. They're like one star that couple of times that we're working, for example, are really using the tools in their work day and they tend to get lost because there is like a lot of these tools. You know, like every day, I think there is a bunch of new tool that are spawning everywhere, so they're getting lost and productivity isn't increased when they are and people don't have enough money to build it from scratch, so they are what do you use? Something that is already there, because of that data sensitivity. So I would say that there is a mixture of everything. So it will take some time, kind of, to resolve and see which tool wins, which tool is the best to use and, and Definitely start with that are using the tools, are going to be in the forefront and are going to have a big advantage on the competition side.

Speaker 2: 19:37

Yeah, I think it's clear that I truly is revolutionizing productivity in software development and even beyond that. And essentially, I think startups are at various stages, are embracing these tools. Probably some of them are really using it to enhance their work and I think others are probably still very likely hesitant. But striking the right balance between leveraging a I and maintaining some personal essence is really, I think, unique to each startup brand. I think that's what's the key right there. When you're advising startups and communicating with investors, how do you navigate that conversation around using I wisely without losing the human touch that is often really the hallmark of a startups brand identity? And in this context, could you also elaborate on how startups should way Bootstrapping against seeking out funding on their own?

Speaker 3: 20:33

Yeah, yeah so. So, in essence, bootstrapping is building product with your own money or, to be more precise, is building a startup, building your product without giving activity to anyone. So, basically, you have your bootstrapped and you have your own money that you're investing, while basically raising funds or are looking for investors, means that there is someone on board that has equity in your product and they invest their own money in building your product. So, basically, that is, like, at the core, the difference. But, as I always say, like Often question that I get from from either from founders or from from a couple of investors that we are working with as well, like they often ask us like what do you think? What is the bad, what is better? You know, like there is two sides of the thing. One one side of the thing is that it's better to invest your own money and keep the equity in your product, but the bad side of that is that if product fails, you lost your money, right? If you get the investment, you give out the equity. So the bad side of the thing is that, basically, someone else is going to take earnings off of your product, right? The good side of that is, if product fails, you didn't lost your, you lose your money. Basically, the investors lost their money, right. So there is kind of the good and bad side in all.

Speaker 3: 22:05

I would say that in order for company to scale up no pun intended In order for company to scale up, it does need some external investment at one point. I would say that, as long as you have that, as you start off, founders don't have exact idea of what they want to achieve, and if the problem that they're resolving is really problem and the solution that they have is really solution for the problems for their customers, they should bootstrap until they find that solution for the problems. When they do find that and I mean building like simple MVP or something like that when they do that, that might be a good time for start raising and start connecting with potential investors, et cetera. The reason for that is that it's a lot easier to get investor when you can show that you have a clear path to product market fit. And the second reason is that, since you already have a product, you already have made some progress. It's going to take less equity giving away less equity for more money.

Speaker 2: 23:15

So what are some indicators that signal the need for scaling up? You mentioned scalability, and I think this is kind of where, when startups start to progress to a certain stage, they often reach a point where they must expand their operations. I think this phase is kind of referred to as reaching velocity. So when you've observed these startups, what are the different funding changes that they need required in scaling up? What are the critical factors that really enable those startups to achieve true scalability, whether through secure funding or accessing resources, acquiring talent or just other key elements that really help propel them to the next level of growth?

Speaker 3: 23:59

Yeah, startups are a tricky game At start. When everyone starts, the founders are doing everything by themselves, right? So all of everything I mean from marketing, sales, product et cetera, everything that is done by founders to founders or through the funding team, let's say like that, gradually, as startups is evolving and growing, all of these things should be taken care by someone else. Your, basically founders, should start slowly to delegate things, and this is the critical aspect. So, in choosing the right people, persons and right people to delegate these important tasks, so it's time to employ someone to be CMO, for example, chief Marketing Officer. You need to have someone reliant, that reliable that you can. You know that they're going to perform well. Same goes for other positions like CFO or CPO, et cetera. So, basically, you need to have a great team and that is the core to whom you can delegate the responsibilities that you have. When it comes to the scaling up your product. If you have a good, solid team, it's easy to get the organization inside of the team, it's easy to get that planning, it's easy to prepare that infrastructure for to overcome everything that comes with scaling Huge number of users, huge number of invoices, huge number of visibility towards multiple clients, a lot of communication with potential clients and everything that needs to be handled correctly. But having that right team for that is the key.

Speaker 3: 25:52

Everyone is kind of obsessed with the planning and organization and I say that it's easy easy to say it like that. It's really easy to do that if you have the right team. If you don't have the right team, every organization and planning of work is going to be tough to do. And don't be afraid about employing the wrong people, it will happen inevitably. It's about having a system that basically spots that there are some bad performances out of the team that can be replaced, that must be replaced. So that is the key. So to have that kind of system of responsibility inside of the team that clearly states okay, this was your responsibility, this wasn't done correctly, et cetera. And then basically replacement comes and everything is pretty much resolved. But in order to have that you need to have a capable majority of the team and have that system in place. And I say, like organization, everything comes naturally with the right thing.

Speaker 2: 26:52

Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely a great bit of wisdom. So two questions before we round out our segment for the day. My first question is just in your opinion, how do you start to see AI transforming that job landscape for software developers and startup? I know you mentioned it's not gonna eliminate jobs, but what do you see as kind of the pivotal, that kind of that watermark moment where it's going to change kind of how software developers work in a startup environment?

Speaker 3: 27:24

No big change comes overnight. So when Chagy Pity was released it was a boom, but nothing changed overnight. No one lost their job overnight. It is going to be gradual process. If you take a look like for software developers, it's they cannot.

Speaker 3: 27:44

The productivity of software development has increased already with these AI tools, like internally in scale up. We are using them, but it's not like 40 or 50% increase in productivity. It's more like 10 to 20% increase by using these tools. But in a way it's not going to come overnight.

Speaker 3: 28:04

But the core thing is that people need to understand that when I say people, it's software developers and need to understand that the job that we have done for decade is going to be revolutionized in a way that it's going to be changed and it's going to be.

Speaker 3: 28:20

We need to start using these tools in order to increase the productivity, increase the efficiency of the code, increase the speed of writing the code, et cetera. And, as I say, like if you're not using it, it's not that in a year you're going to lose your job, but this is going to be a gradual process. So more or less in the next few years we might see even in job ads there that there is a requirement that people are familiar with these AI tools that are writing the code and reproducing the code and troubleshooting the code and everything. So this is gradual process, but I feel that at this point the cleverest of software developers are going to understand that this change is coming and that they're going to be willing to try new things and try to see if they can increase their own productivity by using these AI tools and staying up to trends.

Speaker 2: 29:14

Yes, that's the key right there is being able to stay up to date. I know that things move and change and evolve so rapidly that the pace of innovation comes out so quickly. I think that the difficulty is some software developers are looking to future proof their careers in the form of AI. So kind of given that context, if you were to speak to a group of software developers, what advice would you give them about how they can still continue to keep learning and upskilling in this rapid pace, just because things are just coming out so fast? How can they hyper focus on just staying focused on being software developers with when everything's being thrown at them? What advice would you give those young kids?

Speaker 3: 29:55

Yeah, that advice never changes. I always advise everyone when they're starting their career like focus on single development programming language and that language needs to be something that's like a core long problem in the language. I don't want to be too techy, but if someone starts off as a software developer and they start using a React as a JavaScript framework, that's pretty short-sighted. You know, like if you're proficient in React, that's cool for the start and for now, but what is going to happen in a few years? Is React going to be popular or not? So it's going to be an issue for them to shift from to another language and everything and to another framework. But if you get that core knowledge, understanding like starting with some basic language, like core language, like Java or JavaScript or something like that understanding that concept of software development, how everything is code, how code is written, what code does, etc. Understanding one programming language in details really opens up the perspective and it's really easy for developers to shift to another programming language.

Speaker 3: 31:06

A majority of people that I work with that are really proficient in one language.

Speaker 3: 31:12

It's a matter of a few months to switch to another programming language and they are writing the perfect code in that language as well. And regarding the AI tools for junior developers, I would say don't bother with that when you start a career, because AI tools are great assistance to at the moment for a bit more senior developers or developers that are able to write their own code For junior developers, they are going to be lost in that level of code that is being generated by AI. It's like something is AI tools writing the code that they don't understand. So you need to understand what the tool is writing. So in order to do that, you need to be proficient with the code. You need to understand the code and everything. So I would say, when you're starting, choose the core language, learn it in details and then it's really easy to even exploit these AI tools or shift to another programming language if you would like, etc. So that is the advice that stood there for, I think, less decade or so.

Speaker 2: 32:12

Well, truly fascinating, so, adi. So, as we wrap up, as we bring things to a close, I would love to hear your final thoughts on where you see startups integrating AI into the future. What's your vision for the next wave of innovation in this space? What are you looking for?

Speaker 3: 32:31

In terms of innovation. It's really hard to predict, you know. So it's like we have a big leap with LLMS today. A big question is going to be how to truly innovate with LLMS in whole set of industries that we have today, and it's something that's really hard to do. It's hard to predict because every industry is going to have their own revolution in terms of the AI, so it's hard to predict for each industry.

Speaker 3: 33:05

In general, I think that we had a breakthrough. Llms are there. It's more a matter of question how to implement that or how to reuse that technology in specific industry. Technology movers like myself are not going to be able to do that on their own, so in order to do that correctly, we are going to need industry experts, you know. So if we are building a tool for the music industry, we are going to need industry experts from from the music industry. If you're doing that for a legal industry, you're going to need expert from legal industry, etc.

Speaker 3: 33:40

So it's more going to be a cooperation between tech companies, as it always was, with industry experts, and I feel that at this moment, like the biggest benefit that, in general, ai is going to bring is a fast, fast prototyping in a way that you can really spin off a lot of ideas in a shorter amount of time and see if they work.

Speaker 3: 34:03

You know so, before that you had three or four months basically of building the MVPs, seeing if that will work. I think that nowadays we are closing the gap and kind of we are trying to get something out there in a few months or month or two and spinning off multiple ideas and seeing if they get traction. If they get traction, then we can build it up and basically build a proper code and proper product. And I feel that is the biggest advantage that at the moment AI is going to produce, like giving that flexibility to founders to test a lot of ideas in a shorter amount of time, see what works and then double down on that idea. But it's going to be definitely interesting to see if what kind of revolution to a specific industry AI is going to bring, and I think that's really really hard to predict.

Speaker 2: 34:51

I wish we had a crystal ball so we can predict right, so that way we can start betting on the future. Atty it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the Tech Travels podcast. Your insights and experiences are really invaluable to our listeners and I'm sure they're going to walk away with some new perspectives and probably be building some successful startup and tech ventures on their own. Thanks for sharing your time and, when you're wisdom, with us today. It's much appreciated, thank you.

Speaker 3: 35:20

Anytime, Thank you.

Speaker 2: 35:21

Steve, thank you very much. Until next time.

Speaker 3: 35:24

Yeah, thanks, bye, bye.